DeveloperSide.NET Blog

The one point not mentioned by responses indicating that because Dell makes little money on hardware, they are catering to Windows financial support – is that: Dell will incur “significantly” less costs from help desk operations with Ubuntu than on Windows, especially Vista, and therefore should strongly promote any solution that will in the long run provide greater profitability.

Note: Dell “knows” that GNU/Linux in business saves millions to customers over comparable Windows installations.

“…for every 1 experience such as this, there are 50+ experiences along the lines of “Tried Linux, went back to Windows.”

Since you are using this statistic, I’d like to see the documentation. I’ve been a journalist for 26 years and I’ve seen this strategy used many times. I simply don’t believe it without evidence.

“I hope I have not said anything that made you feel that way. My motto is use whatever you are most productive in.”

Yes, you have. It’s your tone. You come across as: “I really don’t care what you say, I will shoot down any arguement or opinion you may have.”

What you say about using whatever you are most productive with is really the bottom line. I spent a year with various distros and dual booting with Windows. I have been fulltime on GNU/Linux for the past year with no dual booting. I am completely satisfied that it meets my needs and have found no task that cannot be done as well as I could on Windows XP.

Although I have reacted negatively to your postings, I am grateful that I live in a GNU/Linux community that does question and challenge everything. It’s part of the open-source hacker mentality and it has led to some amazing work. If Microsoft had people like you in their corporate community — and actually listened to you and responded to you — Microsoft would continue its dominance of the software world.

It is my personal belief that the past year has seen significant progress in the development of GNU/Linux for the desktop. I believe that acceptance in the general home computer userspace is just beginning. Thanks to companies like Dell (who say Ubuntu sales have exceeded their expectations and are expanding availability, with HP rumoured to soon follow) GNU/Linux visibility is sure to increase. Then, consumers can make their own choices and you and I can trade comments until the cows come home. What will be, will be.

“I’m sure that many consumers don’t appreciate having Linux forced on them.”

Since you love statistics, please let me know how many average home computer users over the years have been forced to use Windows simply because that’s what came preloaded? Tens or millions… hundreds of millions? These people, on average, are unaware that there are alternatives, let along aware of how to get them.

Sorry: “…let alone aware of how to get them.”

Admin Says:
“And for every 1 experience such as this, there are 50+ experiences along the lines of “Tried Linux, went back to Windows.”

Stephen Wilson Says:
“Since you are using this statistic, I’d like to see the documentation. I’ve been a journalist for 26 years and I’ve seen this strategy used many times. I simply don’t believe it without evidence.”

It’s obvious Admin is pulling it out of Admin’s posterior.

You are correct. For every problem they have in windows, they’ll have 10 different ones in Linux.

I consider myself an advanced user, so I would have no problem tweaking Linux when it needs tweaking.

My wife’s PC runs Xubuntu. She was fine and dandy. But she couldn’t do anything but surf the net (sans Flash and Java), type docs, and use Instant Messenger. When she needed Flash 9.0, I had to install the plugin. When she needed Java Runtime Environment, I had to install it.

With windows? Easy as pie in Firefox to get the Java plugin. Even easier to get the Flash plugin.

Having Linux is similar to the days of Windows 3.1 on top of MS-DOS. Except now, it’s Ubuntu/Fedora/OpenSUSE/etc. on top of BASH…

For advanced users that are tired of messing with Microsoft, Linux is da bomb.

But for the average, soccer mom/dad user, Windows is still the best choice.

Computer Literate doesn’t mean the same thing it used to. Technically, now you’re either Computer Literate or Windows Literate…MS has made us lazy.

Although, I failed to mention, that since my wife has me to bail her out on our Xubuntu system, she still uses Linux and likes the experience better.

But if I weren’t around to help her, she would’ve switched back a long time ago.

Admin, can I make a minor, minor nitpick?

“Linux does not have some secret formula that makes it immune… With an increasing market share, Linux will have the same exact growing pains and problems as Microsoft.”

I assert that Linux does have a “secret formula” and that it will not have the “same exact growing pains” – like many unices, it is simply engineered better.

Can you, as someone who does not have access to Windows source code, prove your assertion empirically? With Linux you can – you can examine the source code to see if it’s badly engineered or well engineered. The best empirical evidence we have of Microsoft engineering is the OOXML spec that they’ve published – and if that’s accurate, all I can say is it’s no wonder Windows is so susceptible to viruses. (As I’m sure you’re aware, the OOXML spec contains things that don’t belong in specifications – such as “This should operate as Word95 does” – and things that would be a mistake for a second year CompSci student, such as the lack of specifying units when doing geometrical formulas.)

The reason Windows is inherently less secure is the fact that Microsoft must develop under an unwiedly beauracracy, and they must concentrate on adding functionality to get people to buy things they really don’t need. There are lots of stories around about Microsoft’s development processes. Point blank, Linux is simply a better design than Windows. It’s simple, it’s elegant, and it’s efficient – where Windows has so many API calls that it’s very easy to find a hook into one to create nefarious wares…

“MS has made us lazy.”

I don’t agree.
1) We made ourselves lazy.
2) Convenience is more appropriate word to describe the situation. We, the humans, always make tools easier and more convenient to use. For “the average, soccer mom/dad user” a PC is a tool/appliance. So, it should not be a surprise that not that many care about tweaking things in Linux. After all, a mechanic does not need a CLI to adjust a wrench, just twist a knob and get back to work.

“For advanced users that are tired of messing with Microsoft, Linux is da bomb.”

Are we really talking about users here? Or enthusiasts, whose hobby happen to be computer tweaking??? And therefore, Windows does not provide enough opportunities to tweak…

“Point blank, Linux is simply a better design than Windows.”

Ohhh, that explains why I cannot see some of my favorite web sites in Linux. It is a part of “better design” :)

“Ohhh, that explains why I cannot see some of my favorite web sites in Linux. It is a part of “better design” :)”

That bad taste in your mouth is your foot.
Linux !=Browser

Is it possible that Linux stands on its own merits?
Most Linux users would say yes.
Use of Linux does not represent a rebellion against Microsoft and Linux stands on its own as a user preference.

“Linux !=Browser”

Duh-duh-duh, do you assume that everybody is dumb around here? Of course, there is more to any OS than just a browser. Browsing is only ONE of many negative experiences you might get while trying Linux.

“Is it possible that Linux stands on its own merits?”

Of course it does. But to blindly say Linux is better design,…. Well it is something you’d expect from a narrow minded fanboi. Or should we say “Linux is better design”, but there are side effects, just like in pharmaceutical ads on TV (you know: constipation, blood pressure, drowsiness)?

“Use of Linux does not represent a rebellion against Microsoft”

Once again, it is not the vibe you get from the fanboiz. Unfortunately those morons (they know who they are) do more harm to Linux rep than they do good.

“Duh-duh-duh, do you assume that everybody is dumb around here?” no

“But to blindly say Linux is better design,….”

it is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness.

http://www.lege.com/unix-nt/

“Unfortunately those morons”
What’s with the name calling?

“When you cater to the lowest common denominator, where is there to go but down?”

Linux community is better in that sense. It does not have to go down. There is Slackware, and then there is Ubuntu. One thing Linux community will have over Windows: wider variety of choice.

“A design is only good for the task it was designed for.”

With your logic, Rolls Royce makes cars and Chevy make cars. Is there a better design?

`UNIX is a mature, technically superior group of operating systems with a proven track record for performance, reliability, and security…`

“Linux is for the developer, by the developer… Not truly meant for mass consumption.”

I don’t think you’ll know what Linux is.?
Your cell phone or next cell phone runs Linux
just to name one mass consumption device.

Linux is NOT Windows Lite.

Four Observations:

#1: If you compare the VISTA laptop to the Ubuntu Laptop (instead of comparing the Ubuntu to the VISTA–AS YOU HAVE DONE!), your assertion falls apart. The $50 savings has been reported before.

#2: You are “crazy” to purchase a RAM/memory upgrade from Dell. Crucial.com is almost 1/2 of what the Dell upgrade cost is! (Crucial memory comes with a better warranty, too!) The ease of upgrading RAM/memory on a Dell laptop make this a real option for anyone.

#3: Your arguement is a “straw-man” arguement and is, therefore, fallacious.

#4: You need a life. Dell has delivered what was requested by the members of the Linux community that responded to their web-site questions. Dell, with the addition of the second laptop, is doing more than what was requested. Dell has announced plans to offer Ubuntu PCs and laptop to the Small-Medium Business community and to European markets.

Sometimes I wonder if some of these Linux pontificators even turn a computer on. Their analytical skills are lacking.

Admin,

You’re not comparing apples to apples here.

Let’s look at core operating system functionality: allocating memory, managing files, managing network activity, managing devices.

Core OS functionality does NOT include the applications themselves, web browsing, or things of that nature.

When you consider this, your assertion that Linux is engineered better only for a certain task and certain userbase fails, because this level of the OS has zero visibility to the end-user. The Linux and Windows kernels both open files, open network connections, and perform similar tasks.

This is where the similarities end. On Linux systems, the graphical interface is completely and absolutely in User space. The Linux kernel does one thing and does it well – it does kernelly-stuff. In Windows, this isn’t the case – the Windows kernel itself must manage graphical devices, graphical input, selection, etc. Now, consider that many scriptable things, such as IE, and VBA, have hooks into these kernel-level routines. In Linux, the corresponding scriptable things – FireFox, StarOffice – do not have hooks into Kernel-level things, only user-level things.

As you may be aware, Kernel-level code can do a lot more damage than User-level code. So, when malware takes advantage of scriptable things, under Windows it does a lot more damage. Tell me this: under Windows, is it possible to lock down a file so tightly that only JoeUser can access it? When I say “only JoeUser can access it”, I mean that very strictly: i.e. no Admin user, no System-level process (since on Vista processes can have higher privilege than Admin), no process at all, can access the file, unless it’s JoeUser?

Marketing-driven engineering is not proper engineering. In MDE, you take a core that might be solid, and when marketing wants a feature, you add the feature – and then you add enough duct tape and bailing wire patches to the rest of the codebase until it works. After you’ve done this for 10 years it’s just a gigantic, planet-sized ball of duct tape. If you don’t believe me, scan any of the Microsoft blogs where insiders describe their dev process.

And, please elaborate, what specific limitations of Linux mean it’s only “by developers, for developers”? The only limitation of Linux in today’s arena is the fact that there aren’t more SMB apps for it, because the market doesn’t exist. There’s nothing inherently “hard” about using Linux.

Your cell phone or next cell phone runs Linux
just to name one mass consumption device.

I think we both know I was not referring to embedded Linux.

Just to reduce the tension and cool things off:
Linux Phone Customer Service: “Hi Sir, may I help you?”
Joe Customer: “Hi, I upgraded gcc compiler in my Linux Cell Phone to the latest version available from unstable repository and recompiled the kernel and several other applications with it. And now my Linux Phone would not iron my pants anymore”.
Customer service: “Oh, it is simple Sir. You need to include ‘this’ and ‘that’ optimizer flags for gcc. After that you should be just fine. But in future, we advise you to use gcc from stable repository. Have a nice day”

Why is it that every article that mentions both windows and linux always reopens the whole windows versus linux debate YET AGAIN?

That is not the issue here!

The issue is that dell gives more reduction on the same hardware if choose vista as OS instead of ubuntu.
It does not matter if one is better then the other. It does not matter that ubuntu has a smaller footprint and doesn’t need it anyway.
What matters is that if you buy the same hardware, your OS choice will determine the price of that hardware.

This is unfair.
This will result in bad sales-figures. And this will set a bad example.

It will result in a missed chance at finally getting the driver support from hardware vendors WE NEED to get hardware to work out of the box.

It is funny the so called ‘admin’ talking about ‘windows stability’ somewhere above, and in other place saying that one doesn’t necessarily have to put an antivirus on a windows box. At work we have ‘windows xp sp2′ and still after inserting a CD and opening the ‘my computer’ the window _freezes_ until windows is able to read something from the disk, that is, that window becomes usless for a few seconds. Is that a behaviour of a _stable_ OS? If so – then what is the experience of the above ‘admin’ (hehe) working with a modern Linux desktop where practically nothing ever freezes (not to mention the server side)?
You’re indeed as someone above mentioned one of the best anti Linux trolls, by the huge amount of your posts you’re prolly also paid for that (or just need to get a life).

“a modern Linux desktop where practically nothing ever freezes”

I’ll smoke whatever he/she smokes. Really, pass me that magic pipe.

The window freezes until it is able to read something, and even worse, if the CD is unreadable you end up with a CTRL+ALT+DEL magic combination. This is just a small issue out of _many_ ’stability’ complains I have about windows. At work I’m missing what I have for granted on Linux by default – multiple Desktops, ability to keep a window above others, manage transparency, a rich repository with thousands of programs which are qualitative and free (like firefox and gimp), and lots of other things which have been said on different posts on the web ad nauseam.
To those living in ignorance fighting viruses (thus having to reinstall windows every few months) and managing loads of software licenses keeping track of their expiration date: Ubuntu Linux is much better in all regards. It would take too much to describe the huge relief you get with such an OS. I used to be a vivid windows user, now I don’t care who and what says about any OS, I know with Linux I don’t have any problems anymore.
You can get a free Ubuntu CD (also shipped for free): https://shipit.ubuntu.com/

Bryan Says:

“I’ll smoke whatever he/she smokes. Really, pass me that magic pipe.”
..where there’s smoke there’s … pollution.

You know the saying …the squeaking wheel gets … annoying!

“You know the saying …the squeaking wheel gets … annoying!”

Trying to compensate lack of the balls by insulting others? It so new and fresh and cool. I promise to ignore pathetic loosers in future.

Oops! I guess the original point of this blog is meaningless now!

From Desktop Linux today:

["Bottom line this was an oversight, pure and simple," a Dell spokesperson told DesktopLinux.com. "We will be posting a comment to IdeaStorm to that effect by tomorrow." In the meantime, Dell says that the prices have been reset to the appropriate prices... Now, Dell has corrected its mistake. If you go to the Dell Inspiron 1420 page, you'll find you can get the same offer for the free upgrade to 2GB of memory and 160GB hard drive for the Ubuntu Inspiron 1420.]

Well, now that it is squared away. What happens if one buys Ubuntu laptop for $50 (or whatever) less than Vista laptop, and a month later decides that he/she wants his/her Windows back. Will Dell send them a Vista install disk for extra $50 or charge a full retail for Windows copy?

Argumentative question. Honestly, anyone who bothers to ferret out the Ubuntu machines on the Dell site, wants one. It’s not as if it hits you in the face when you open the site.

Agreed about not hitting in the face when you go to Dell.com.
But the reason I asked: it is quite possible that a person who never used Linux/Unix in their life heard the buzz. And decides to give it a try while feeling good about $50 saved.

I suppose anything’s possible. What happens is someone buys a Vista laptop and a month or so later decides that they should have bought an Ubuntu laptop? Does Dell send them an Ubuntu disk and a check for $50 plus the retail cost of Vista?

Not likely, before you start using Windows you agree to the license :(
I wonder if there should be a some kind of grace period for those situations?

Well, I was being sarcastic (how unusual for me), but you raise an interesting question. I have several friends who have bought new PCs with preloaded Vista and have varying levels of unhappiness with it. As you pointed out, Ubuntu may not be everyone’s cup of tea, either. Interesting that we have a situation today where some average home users may not really have a choice of OS that they are completely satisfied with.

My last post was replying to Bryan, by the way.

Admin says:
“I’m entirely open to the idea that this was an oversight.”

What constitute as fact to you?

“how exactly will Dell profit from selling Ubuntu systems at a cost of $10-50 less”

Other OEMs, hence: HP are asking the same question.

Admin says:
“The original point was that Dell is using the Linux offerings to drive traffic to the Windows counterparts, via generated publicity.”

Baseless!

Tried to buy one and the “Customize” button ended up going nowhere in there browser. Got some garbage survey instead so filled in survey to show I was very unimpressed with their website since it made it impossible to order the system I wanted…

FYI: http://direct2dell.com/one2one/archive/2007/07/12/20891.aspx

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Earlier this week, the DeveloperSide.NET Blog posted a reaction to a pricing error on the Inspiron 1420N configurator page. User the_watcher brought the discussion into IdeaStorm shortly after. We fixed the pricing error this morning. Erik_d, a member of our Consumer pricing team issued an update in the comment thread earlier today.

Here’s what he said:

“As a member of Dell’s consumer pricing team, I want to let you know that the recent pricing error on the Inspiron 1420 with Ubuntu was a simple oversight—the pricing promotions available on the Inspiron 1420 with Vista were not applied to the Ubuntu systems. But we have now fixed this error. If you check today, you should find the same promos in play on both the Ubuntu and the Vista systems. Thanks for calling this error to our attention—and keep the feedback coming.”

I’d like to reiterate Erik’s sentiment: thanks to the blogging community for bringing the error to our attention, and sorry for any inconvenience this has caused.
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